Curse

fortior · Oct 18, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Were talking about organized pvp, its either going to stay the same or become unorganized and since guilds with gwamm and 50/50 are going to happen its not a long shot, pvp guilds basing performance on you're past gw1 experiences during the start of gw2 is a definite.

>you're

Mk, organized pvp guilds looking at performance in a game that doesn't resemble GW2s gameplay at all. I'm sorry, that's like basing your invites on the player's gamerscore on xbox live (for the slow of wit, total bull).
Of course there will be cliques but judging on behalf of outdated stats (that aren't even relevant anymore) won't happen aside from some excentric guilds.

For a real world example look at HoN/DotA. HoN is almost a carbon copy of DotA yet the dota vets are staying in dota and the hon professional gamers are unknown in the dota scene. I predict this will happen with GW: real high end guilds will stick to GW1 pvp because they mastered it while a completely new pvp scene will grow in GW2.
Pro gaming doesn't like change, after all.

Ninja Ninja · Oct 18, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

>you're

Mk, organized pvp guilds looking at performance in a game that doesn't resemble GW2s gameplay at all. I'm sorry, that's like basing your invites on the player's gamerscore on xbox live (for the slow of wit, total bull).
Of course there will be cliques but judging on behalf of outdated stats (that aren't even relevant anymore) won't happen aside from some excentric guilds.

Do you think world vs world is going to be the only pvp in gw2? There is obviously going to be some type pvp where you pick your own team, that type of pvp will reward you with a title, people will want higher title people on there teams. There's going to be skills, there will be builds, and some professions will be stronger than others, so isn't that so different from gw1?

fortior · Oct 18, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

Do you think world vs world is going to be the only pvp in gw2? There is obviously going to be some type pvp where you pick your own team, that type of pvp will reward you with a title, people will want higher title people on there teams. There's going to be skills, there will be builds, and some professions will be stronger than others, so isn't that so different from gw1?

Yeah that's GW1 alright. And WoW, EQ1, EQ2...

doomfodder · Oct 18, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote: Originally Posted by doomfodder
The crux of the OP is that it's clear that ANET would prefer the player base to focus on PvE. That's why the HoM only has ONE PvP title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

That's great, but I disagree. ArenaNet built a HoM catering to PvE players because there is very little (perhaps nothing) you can offer PvP players that isn't damaging to the game for reasons described above.

Interesting conclusion – “damaging to the game”.
IMHO not every solution is win-win. In fact most solutions act like a double edged sword (to continue with metaphors).

It reasonable to concede that “competitive players didn’t play for titles” (at least some of em). Also it’s reasonable to concede that “stagnation isn’t good for anybody” (paraphrased from quote). ANET may well have considered “player’s psyche” when designing the HoM Gw2 “rewards”. However if ANET chose to use the HoM to incent players to play PvP (even some small amount), it is also reasonable to think that the benefits of a larger PvP player base in GW1 balances the “damage to the game” on players psyche for GW2.

fortior · Oct 18, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

pvpers shouldnt care about some reskins of weapons
if you care about the reskins/titles you should have done more pve

end of discussion

*lemming* · Oct 18, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

What kind of recognition would you like? Perhaps they should carry over PvP titles? Maybe we can start Guild Wars 2 and discriminate against new players right from day one with our largely irrelevant Guild Wars achievements? That would be just fantastic, wouldn't it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

There are many hundreds of veteran PvP players out there with high champ/hero titles, who you have probably never heard of. The knowledge and experience of these people would far better serve the game if they were scattered amongst the entirely new players, allowing them to share it.

What makes you think that experienced players moving over from GW2 won't prefer to play with each other anyway? It's not like everyone is switching anonymously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

Mk, organized pvp guilds looking at performance in a game that doesn't resemble GW2s gameplay at all. I'm sorry, that's like basing your invites on the player's gamerscore on xbox live (for the slow of wit, total bull).
Of course there will be cliques but judging on behalf of outdated stats (that aren't even relevant anymore) won't happen aside from some excentric guilds.

>eccentric

Also, your analogy is terrible.

Del · Oct 18, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

pvpers shouldnt care about some reskins of weapons
if you care about the reskins/titles you should have done more pve

end of discussion

What makes you think PvPers should care less about skins than pvers? Either way it's arbitrary vanity, just as useless to either. Your point is moot.

fortior · Oct 18, 2010, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

What makes you think PvPers should care less about skins than pvers? Either way it's arbitrary vanity, just as useless to either. Your point is moot.

pvpers played years with no skins in sight and they didn't whine

JR · Oct 18, 2010, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What makes you think that experienced players moving over from GW2 won't prefer to play with each other anyway? It's not like everyone is switching anonymously.

Because the vast majority have fallen out of touch with other players over the years, and will be quite happy to mix it up with some new people. Sure, some will gravitate back together, but there will be a fair amount of new blood in there too.

One thing you, and others, seem to be forgetting is that the competitive community now is a tiny, pathetic fraction of what it has been in the past. It's not like the people playing now will move over in their various Guilds, and that will be it for the competitive community.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Also, your analogy is terrible.

His analogy was pretty good, actually.

fortior · Oct 18, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What makes you think that experienced players moving over from GW2 won't prefer to play with each other anyway? It's not like everyone is switching anonymously.

Everyone is a newbie in GW2. Sure you'll carry over some friends but only a fool would think those old friends will be the only contacts you'll have.

Quote:

Also, your analogy is terrible.

Argumentum ad "I'm right and you're not!!"
0/10 do not pass start do not collect $200.

Skyy High · Oct 18, 2010, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

Yeah that's GW1 alright. And WoW, EQ1, EQ2...

Save the whole "everyone has the same skills, traits, weapons, and armor" bit...

Killed u man · Oct 18, 2010, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

Everyone is a newbie in GW2. Sure you'll carry over some friends but only a fool would think those old friends will be the only contacts you'll have.

Argumentum ad "I'm right and you're not!!"
0/10 do not pass start do not collect $200.

Whereas everyone is newb, not everyone will be bad. Experience and skill are 2 different thing, and whereas GW2 will reset the experience, the skill won't.

Also, some people are acting as Guild Wars 2 will be a completely different game, it won't. It will be improved, but the engine has stayed the same (but with a Z-axis now), and going by the many Gamescon movies, the gameplay has stayed roughly the same. Simply call it Guild Wars 3D...

This results in people who played GW having an edge over people who didn't play GW, which is only natural, concidering some of us have been "loyal" to ANet for 5 years.

And even on a deeper level, the people who come from GW will be devided in 2 groups, the bad players, and the good ones. The good ones will be the "smart" players (not necessarily high titled ones), the players who learn fast, and who understand Guild Wars and it's mechanics. Because it is those players who will form guilds, form teams, form metas and ultimately be the new top tier in both PvE and PvP.

I concider myself a very experienced player who knows Guild Wars through and through. When GW2 comes out, I'll have a major advantage over (most) other people in that I know exactly where the game comes from, and I can make logical links between the game. (For example, if the weapon damage stayed roughly the same, I'll know that warriors will do the most raw DPS, and that off those, Hammer would do the most the different weapons) Surely, I'll have to learn much new stuff, but the base I have is as broad as it gets, and it will put me above other players quickly.

When I'm going to play GW2 PvP, ideally, I'dd have (7, 11, whatever number) players at around my skill level, or atleast high enough to be thaught quickly. I, aswell as just about every other player who takes PvP serious, will transfer his GW friendlist to GW2, and recruit people based on that list.

Or do you think you have a valid chance of getting recruited by Rawr GW2 Edition [rawr] or [EviL] (In the off chance they'll play GW2 aswell) or whatever top guild (be it GvG or HA) you can think off now. You won't, despite what many people claim here on these forums. (I know you don't specifically want to get recruited, but it was a general example)

Even PvE guilds are already organizing their allianced for the cross-over to GW2.

*lemming* · Oct 19, 2010, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

One thing you, and others, seem to be forgetting is that the competitive community now is a tiny, pathetic fraction of what it has been in the past. It's not like the people playing now will move over in their various Guilds, and that will be it for the competitive community.

The first option is always going to be playing with people you know. I'm not saying that new people won't be able to play, but experienced players will have a leg up on the PvP social structure no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

His analogy was pretty good, actually.

No, it's not.

Being a competent PvPer in Guild Wars generally means that you have attributes making you suited to it - dedication, awareness, capacity for teamwork, receptiveness to criticism, ability to adapt tactics on the fly, and above all, a desire to improve. Even if the gameplay in Guild Wars 2 is completely different, it's players with those attributes who will rise to the top.

Having an astronomical gamerscore does mean that you're good at gaming, to be sure, but it translates a lot less directly to PvP success.

Still Number One · Oct 19, 2010, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

No, it's not.

Being a competent PvPer in Guild Wars generally means that you have attributes making you suited to it - dedication, awareness, capacity for teamwork, receptiveness to criticism, ability to adapt tactics on the fly, and above all, a desire to improve. Even if the gameplay in Guild Wars 2 is completely different, it's players with those attributes who will rise to the top.

Having an astronomical gamerscore does mean that you're good at gaming, to be sure, but it translates a lot less directly to PvP success.

correct. A better analogy would have been players moving on from Call of duty modern warfare to Call of duty modern warfare 2. It may be a new game, but the same attributes that made you good at the first, made you good at the second. The gameplay will be different, but the attributes that made players successful will stay the same. There is a reason some people have been able to rise to the top while others stayed at the bottom. And experience isn't it because I know plenty of people who have played well over 1000 GvG's and never cracked champ range. Believe it or not, there are intangible skills every great player possesses. That's why I could never hope to be as good a warrior as Chiizu or as good a ranger as champ. No matter how much I learn, or how much I play I'll never have the instincts those guys have.

AlyaraSaykomora · Oct 19, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

PvE player here, please don't hate me. I noticed that several years ago, that it was really imbalanced. When the HoH no longer really decided anything at all.. the developers have been trying to please the pve players as much as possible because sadly they figure that's where the money is. PvE players are more likely to spend more money on the game- look at all the stuff that's crammed in the in game store now. I just got back after a couple of years with no internet, and now you can get costumes- but you have to buy them. Not even with a stack of ecto's or something, they want straight money.

I think anet's in trouble and trying to stay afloat, so they're thinking with their wallet. It's sad. I don't like PvP, but friends of mine do.. And actually, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet or not but in order to get 3 points for GW2 you'll probably be getting an influx of PvE players in RA or something. I know I will. Who knows, maybe I'll learn to like it. The Gods know I don't really like putting up with the drama between luxons and kurzicks..

I just got back after about 18 months and I was surprised to see that the updates page wasn't flooded with stuff like it used to be. There used to be almost daily updates of skills, if not daily. I remember when they were finally intelligent enough to split it between PvE and PvP skills so both sides could be happy and it wouldn't be a constant tug of war.

Personally, I can't stand the people in AB. When for a short time I tried out pvp, I found that at least back then people were even worse. I understand it's all a very competitive environment, but it's still a game. I don't see why people have to be so serious about it. The other day I was told I am apparently a noob for liking and playing my mesmer. Some guy thought they should be banned from the game. That's a really mild form of what I've seen.

I do however hope that they hire someone soon who cares about the PvP environment. It seems like the seesaw got toppled over.

MithranArkanere · Oct 19, 2010, 02:06 AM // 02:06

The latest article says they are working to make PvP more rewarding...

Now I wonder what could that be...?

Errant Venture · Oct 19, 2010, 03:48 AM // 03:48

GW2 will focus far less on PvP than on PvE. Unlike GW1 the game engine for GW2 isn't built for pvp and pvp will be far more like arenas in WoW than the current GvG system. I agree it's a disappointing truth, but it's obvious from these facts that HoM rewards and requirements will be geared towards PvE as GW2 will be a PvE-focused game.

Faer · Oct 19, 2010, 08:29 AM // 08:29

A lot of pointless, nonsensical discussion has just been purged from this thread. There is to be no continuation of it, under any circumstances. Stop posting trash in Riverside, kids. Thanks.

Discussion about the actual topic may now resume.

gooeydark · Oct 19, 2010, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by fortior

For a real world example look at HoN/DotA. HoN is almost a carbon copy of DotA yet the dota vets are staying in dota and the hon professional gamers are unknown in the dota scene. I predict this will happen with GW: real high end guilds will stick to GW1 pvp because they mastered it while a completely new pvp scene will grow in GW2.
Pro gaming doesn't like change, after all.

lol, That will not be the case for GW1 vets.

Contrary to what you believe, we encourage the change in the GvG metagame to keep things fresh. The "pro gamer" PvP'ers on the Test Krewe atm constantly push for skill balancing and game mechanic re-works. If we as "pro gamers" maintain our interest in GW1 in the future up until GW2 release, I have no doubt most, if not all, of us will make the transition.

There isn't always symmetry between the pro gamer scene of each individual game.

JR · Oct 19, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

The first option is always going to be playing with people you know. I'm not saying that new people won't be able to play, but experienced players will have a leg up on the PvP social structure no matter what.

Which is fine, and I agree, but we are getting distracted from the point. I'm not arguing that those with experience from Guild Wars wont have an advantage in Guild Wars 2, I'm saying for the good of the game those people should be spread out.

If you add an easy way to quantify and recognize Guild Wars achievements in Guild Wars 2, old players are more likely to be sucked back together into their old cliques. This would a bad thing for the competitive game. It would be far better if these players were also likely to just mingle with the new crowd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Being a competent PvPer in Guild Wars generally means that you have attributes making you suited to it - dedication, awareness, capacity for teamwork, receptiveness to criticism, ability to adapt tactics on the fly, and above all, a desire to improve.

Agreed, but in absolutely no way does having a title imply that you are competent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja Ninja

There is obviously going to be some type pvp where you pick your own team, that type of pvp will reward you with a title, people will want higher title people on there teams.

Sure, but if ArenaNet is smart that wont be the competitive format of choice. Titles were a good way to encourage people to play when the Guild Wars PvP was fading out, and no doubt it resulted in an increase, but ultimately I am positive they were bad for the game. They segregated the community into arbitrary divisions which really were no reflection of skill or potential.

Again, making it harder for new players to get into the game is a bad, bad thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

it is also reasonable to think that the benefits of a larger PvP player base in GW1 balances the “damage to the game” on players psyche for GW2.

If you think it would be good for the game, and good for peoples perception of PvP, to encourage people to grind out hundreds of win streaks in RA, sure. I don't agree.